The Tight Five: Episode 1 - Dr. Jason Frishman, JourneyMen - Video & Full Transcript
The Tight Five: Origin Stories from The Second Row
NOTE: The initial post of this episode was edited for brevity, in the spirit of offering more to those that are interested, this post includes the video and full transcript of my conversation with Jason, ENJOY!
One of the central tenants of the work I do at The Second Row is using my communications skills to bring out what is interesting and awesome about people. That’s what I do. The Tight Five: Origin Stories from The Second Row will feature conversations with smart, thought-provoking folks who are doing great things in ‘The Front Row’ of work, mental health, marketing, service and technology and how they came to their personal and professional path in life. The series is named after the moniker of the combined Front Row (two props and the hooker in the middle) and the Second Row in the rugby scrum which I explained in this post.
The first installment of The Tight Five: Origin Stories from The Second Row features Dr. Jason Frishman, a psychologist based in Vermont and a longtime friend of mine. Jason’s work is focused on bringing his unique brand of adventure therapy and coaching to bring individuals, organizations and boardrooms to wild new environments of discovery. He is the founder of JourneyMen, a remarkable 3-month group coaching program designed to virtually support men in navigating the journey of fatherhood, that I helped him launch last year.
We talk about fatherhood, his role the Innkeeper of the JourneyMen and his curious desire to connect with a British farmer and chef, I hope you enjoy the introductory edition of The Tight Five: Origin Stories from The Second Row: Episode 1 with Dr. Jason Frishman.
Matt Landry
So, you've been involved in mental health for several years. But you're also a professional chef. How do these 2 passions complement each other?
Dr. Jason S Frishman
We're not going to call me a chef because I don't have the credentials for that. I'm a cook, and I've done it professionally. I do it at home, I do it whenever, but I'm not a chef.
Matt:
A professional cook. That's fine.
Jason:
Ha! As you know, words are important!
They're incredibly complimentary. Decades ago, when I was working full-time as a therapist in Boston, and anyone who works as a therapist knows full-time, is more than 40 hours... I was also working part-time at a newly opened restaurant in Harvard's Square, and that ‘part-time’ turned into about 35 hours a week. So, I was working, 70 hours a week, or whatever it was, and frankly it was some of the happiest times that I've had. Because the work was about great balance for my own brain and mindset. One was more physical. One was more mental, yet the one that was physical was also sort of mental.
So, for me personally it was a wonderful thing. For me a lot of what I do involves nourishing people and helping people learn how to nourish themselves, and so whether it's me cooking for people, which I do more, these days, it’s about education and teaching and doing classes around cooking. It’s an offering in small gatherings, whether it's in cooking or in my therapeutic or coaching worlds. It's about how do we fill ourselves up and how do we create a real presence in that moment?
So, if we're having a meal, we're also cooking the meal. We're not doing 80 million other things all at once. We're really present to that and we're aware of all the things that are connected.
That’s another, really important connection between the two, is that the type of therapy and coaching that I do involves an awareness and a deconstruction of all of the other systems that surround the individual. It's not just traditional therapy, which locates the problem within the person, as I really don't accept that notion.
So much about mental health is about the systems of oppression, racism, sexism, using financial capital. All the structural systems that impact our interpersonal relationships and our mental health. But when it comes to food, we have to think about you know where the food came from and how it’s processed and do you know where it came from, it’s it good for you, there’s so many levels. But do we spend time being aware of those things?
In the greater context of both the food world and our mental health world, it's a fascinating puzzle, but there are no right answers and so we get to play with that on both sides.
Matt
We've talked about this concept a lot over the years and something that just occurred to me for the first time, is that I can see, preparing something as simple as a breakfast sandwich for your two boys or on the other hand something bigger and more ornate like a multicourse meal for 10 people, you're in control. Versus in a therapeutic session where you are listening proactively, but there's a passiveness to that. Additionally, while you're cooking, you are not solving a problem when you're making a meal, you're creating a solution from the ingredients, your tools and skill and it is being done literally from scratch.
Jason
Absolutely, at least in the way that I like to cook! My best experiences cooking, even if I'm the one in charge, is when it is a collaborative. co-constructed process. I need to know, especially up here in Vermont, what are the dietary choices. Who's gluten free or grain free or allergic and you have your vegan or your nut free diet, all of the different things. My cooking philosophy is that I don't want anyone to have to feel deprived, so I make sure that we create things for everyone. It's not like, ‘hey guys, I made this great thing! But you vegans can’t have it, so here's a slab of tofu…’ But the best part is that I make my tofu from scratch, so it's going to be good!
Matt
For our vegans and vegetarians, here’s some nuts and a few rocks. Sorry!
Jason
Yeah, exactly! While I'm making it from scratch, because I love tofu, but I'm not going to just toss it on the table. I'm going to make it so everybody can enjoy everything that's going on and there are choices. But you're right, I love the idea of playing with passivity or activity or activeness, and then a solution that is focused on just listening. There's a lot of intercorrelations between the 2 things, for sure.
Matt
So, you launched the JourneyMan Foundation last fall. How did that come about?
Jason
It was a long journey, and that makes sense, especially to me, the one had to live it.
I've worked for almost 25 years in the mental health field, in all kinds of different residential and therapeutic settings, but almost entirely with men and boys and families. As I had my own children, I found that I saw fewer kids, because I wanted to save that energy for my kids and our friends.
As I started seeing more adults, I gradually came to focus on working with fathers. Part of it was because that was who was referred to me, but it was really because that’s who I loved working with. After a bit of time, like so much of the traditional psychotherapy world, I realized that there were a lot of rules, boundaries and regulations, that are very restrictive, for men who often need a community.
One story I think about a lot is something that happened before the pandemic. I was in my office, in a session with a client and I knew that the guy who was literally waiting on the other side of my door in my waiting room, if I could just be able to introduce the two, they would have significant less need of me, their therapist.
But I'm not allowed to do that, and I get why, I do understand that. But it was frustrating. Very soon thereafter I had this realization that no matter how powerful of a session I have with a guy in my therapy office, as soon as he walks out of my room and into culture, into a world that isn't typically accepting of men doing this kind of work. The moment he walks out of the door he has to leave it at the door in order to go back and be a part of the world and be part of his business world or be a part of his buddies. Even in his relationship at home. He's got to hold up certain masks or hold up certain things, that even if he's ready to let go of them, the community and the culture around him is not.
So, Journeyman was really born out of saying to myself, ‘I want to provide something, that as a therapist of 25 years, I know would be useful and helpful and supportive to men. Something that's different than the traditional ‘I'm broken. I gotta go see a shrink…’
Matt
You’ve talked a little bit about the inspiration, the motivation, but there is also a very well thought out JourneyMen curriculum, featuring several chapters. Talk a bit about the thinking behind that curriculum, which is at the a heart of the journeyman ‘journey;
Jason
Yes, absolutely and, it has a lot to do with our conversations over the last 6 months or so, because to be able to say it succinctly was really important. Basically, JourneyMen comes from my background in something called adventure therapy, and something called narrative therapy.
I call myself an adventure storyteller, or a storytelling adventurer, however, you want to say it. I have always loved stories of adventure and journeys and fantasy. I have always seen the concept of adventure and journey as a metaphor for life, on so many levels. For decades that concept was the underpinning of the therapy that I did, and it was very much from this point of view of something called the hero's journey.
It comes from a combination of Joseph Campbell, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc. The whole idea about the journey, the hero going off and battling dragons, and getting treasure, and saving the universe. The problem is that it's really only half the story and because this story has become prolific and it's everywhere in culture, I think it’s actually quite damaging to men and boys, because it only gives the main model we have the main cultural story. To be worth something, you have to be epic and legendary, and do amazing grand things. Even if you're going to do those things, the story doesn't involve any of the training that's required in order to do those things.
So, there's this false sense of like I'm going to get called, I'm going to be the chosen one and all of a sudden, I'm going to be powerful. I'm going to do great things, right?
That's obviously oversimplifying. But my whole thing about this was, particularly after having my own sons, I'm not doing epic things anymore. I'm doing great things right. I love being a dad. I love doing these things, but I'm not necessarily going off on grand adventures. I'm staying home and like wiping butts and washing dishes.
Matt:
There's no light saber involved here.
Jason:
Exactly. I wish there was the force because maybe they’ll wipe their own butts. So, Journeyman was really born out of the idea that everyday life is magical and adventurous, and we've lost touch of that. I think in many ways it has a lot to do with the social structure of things, the patriarchy, all the different things have limited the expression and the possibilities for men to develop. JourneyMen became the idea of inviting men to come to an inn, metaphorically, a virtual Inn and let their shoulders down and be heard, and get some training as to what to do, share stories and elevate the mundane and the importance of our everyday lives to have meaning and value. If I'm going to be changing diapers and wiping butts, is that meaningful? Is there a way to make that a value based activity? Because I chose to have these kids and they are the humans who I love more than anybody else. If I see it as a chore, I'm sure it changes everyone’s perspective, mine certainly did.
I'm toying with an article and the title is going to be. A man's place is in the home… The idea is that in my home, these are the people that I care the most about. How can I be more present and connected to them? My belief is that these foundational adventures at home are the answer we need to the one-sidedness of the hero's journey.
So, we need to build foundational adventures which give us the training, knowledge, awareness, presence, and mindfulness, to be able to both do the important things in our home, but also to go out into the world and do things in our community, in our work, and be real leaders in better and more powerful ways.
Joseph Campbell was wrong. I love the story. I really love the hero's journey, but I think there needs to be a deeper answer to it. There needs to be another half of the adventure that we talk about more. So, Journeyman offers a curriculum based on my many years of experience working with men, augmented by research that I’ve done, as I certainly didn't make it all on myself. work coming from the narrative therapy world. The adventure therapy, world, that I've drawn from. But it's a curriculum that allows men to really slow down under what's most important to them and follow a path of their own choosing that allows them to gain the presence, the connection and the skills to be the father that they want to be to their kids, their partner and for themselves. So many men, are not where they want to be, they are not doing what they wanted to be.
Matt:
Obviously, there's an aspect of JourneyMen that applies when your children are grown up, when you're in your forties or fifties, you realize… ‘Oh, I'm not going to be the hero.’ I'm not going to be the super duper action movie star, a professional baseball player.
But on the other hand, there's this amazing, foundational work that all these men have built over the years. That really is something to be proud of versus not saving the day.
Jason:
100% and that's exactly right. You've heard me say this, but being a connected present, father is social activism, and that’s an amazing way to frame it. because the more we have those foundation skills, the more we can also look at work. I have so many guys who say, ‘well yeah, of course, I care about this and this and this. But I don't have the time or resources to do it.’
Well, okay… but you know what, you are doing it. If you make the choice to know yourself, to really know your kids, what a gift you're giving to your little ones for sure.
Matt:
To that point, being an active and connected impressive father. As you know, a lot of fathers over the last 3 years of got a chance to connect again with their kids as the world shut down with Covid. What are some of the impacts you're seeing in the communities that you work with, whether it be the journeymen, or the men you see in your private practice, what for some of the things you're seeing happening right now after going through COVID.
Jason:
I was talking about it this morning. Across the board, both in my practice and with my journeymen, and I hear this when talking to my colleagues as well. There's an increase in anxiety. There's an increase in frustration, tolerance, and you know this stimach, which is sort of little depression, but very small. We were sort of saying this is a good example, because traditional psychology has always placed these things solidly in our own brain. Right?
Like anxiety and depression. It's a neurological, chemical imbalance. Blah, blah blah! There might be a molecule of truth to that. But right here we have a great example where the world is literally burning, and people are anxious about it. We're not going to say that all of a sudden, their brains have broken more.
Matt:
Right!
Jason:
Right like there are external circumstances. I think that there's increased isolation. What's interesting specifically about men and fathers and an impact that I haven't actually talked much about. I've been thinking a lot about it recently, is that it may not be increased isolation, but there's an increased awareness of one's isolation… when you're off going to work and you're like you know what you’re leaving behind or going to.
So, you’re doing the ‘after work thing,’ you're going to the bar with your buddies, playing pick up basketball or softball, you can pretend that you're not isolated. But you are equally isolated because you're not having real meaningful connections with people, and you're just sort of going through the motions. And but I think you know COVID has put it in our faces, but too many guys have said in my office, ‘if my wife left me, I'd have no one…’
The awareness of that, I think, is stronger for a lot of the men that I'm working with. What then? We'll say, ‘Oh, man! I feel like I know this, but I can't do anything about it right now, there's an awareness that male friendships are just too hard
But the fact that in our culture there's a genre of movies about romances which are inherently grounded in homophobia and patriarchal thought isa sign of how much harder is for men who are especially older or not in an office, to make and have friends with meaningful connections.
I think that's been a major factor. I don't know if I'm giving you three, but I think that's really the big one that jumps out, there's an awareness of isolation, loneliness, separateness, disconnection that I think men who have always been impacted by this, are now feeling it in ways that are new, and they feel shitty about it.
Matt:
To circle back a little bit to the start of our conversation, almost as if we intended it, you get to that point of awareness and feeling shitty about it and now what do you do?
‘I’ve broken down all this structure, which was impeding me from living, not the perfect life, but my best life and really living and being present in it. But now that you've broken some of those things down now, how do you find the things that you need within this new construct that you’ve created?
Jason:
Exactly! Well, I would say that there's another step in there, not just how do you find the things you need, but how do you figure out what you need and why? What I'm saying is there’s an increased awareness of things being not right, but the solution is not there. Because we don't have the stories for it. We don't have teaching stories of how you start to address it. There are still men who will say, ‘Okay, I get that. I'm isolated, so I'll just fix it, you know.’ But men far too often say, ‘I'll just work harder.’
Matt:
Yeah, but as a friend of ours says, ‘You’ve got to do the work.’
Jason:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly and ‘doing the work’ can be vague until it's not.
My other friend will always say it's not a thing until it's a thing right. So, we have to decide what the thing is first and do it and to be honest, that's what journeyman is about. Right?
A journeyman is about creating this space for guys to let their shoulders down and be in a place where they can explore this stuff.
Matt:
Speaking of exploring what book, author or thinker has been a touchstone for you throughout your career. It can be professional, it can be personal, it can be both or it can be fantastical.
Jason:
For me it's always both. I'm the doer that always reads, and it's like I'll find connections with either science fiction or textbooks. So, I can't give you one, because it's just impossible.
Matt:
I knew it was impossible. I knew that. That's why I gave you 3 options.
Jason:
So, I will say, Joseph Campbell has certainly been a major impact on all of my thinking from high school on, I've been reading his work forever. With him you'd include people who wrote following him, in his tradition. But I start with Joseph Campbell. The idea of a hero’s journey, here's a book myths to live by, he was really impactful on Star Wars, which I'm a big fan of and you know the ideas behind that are what got me to a place where I'm now saying Justin Campbell was wrong. That element is powerful, they're awesome.
Matt:
There's a father joke in here someplace.
Jason:
Yes, of course, well, at some point we could talk about the why, the incredibly deep reason why dad jokes are so important. But we'll get to that some other time. Joseph Campbell.
Matt:
That's a whole other conversation.
Jason:
The writing of 2 men, Michael White and David Epstein, who are seen as sort of the founders of the narrative therapy world. There are lots of people who write about the narrative, perspective, and other fields, but in in the therapeutic world the two of them have several books, and I came into them before I was in my doctorate program, I was working on my masters and read even a bit in undergrad, and I went to many of their trainings in person. Michael White even used to call me the ‘Adventure Guy.’ His stuff was amazing, because so much of narrative therapy was born from a very different well, than many other therapeutic perspectives.
It's from philosophy. It's from literary theory. It's all these things and so it was fascinating for me and it connected all of these things that I love. I'm a big, as you know, fiction reader, connecting all these things and all of a sudden all of it's relevant, you know.
So, you start with Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey thing, and then David Epstein and Michael White told me to tell me grand stories, which then lead me to questioning the hero's journey.
Then the last one or not the last one, I would say… and you'll find it funny because it does circle us back is a chef, is a guy named Hugh Fernley and I'll give you one guess where what country is. It's like the most typical name from this country.
Matt:
I'd have to guess England, of course.
Jason:
Yup Hugh Fernley Whittell, and he was a chef in London, and then you know, I think he was fired, or he left because he just wasn't fast or clean enough for the restaurant business.
So he went on this crazy adventure, where he went to like a rural town in England named Dorset and he rented a cabin and became in the States what we call a homesteader. In England they call it a small holder, and he created a TV series about it.
It's all about him learning to garden and take care of livestock and make a living with it and it included r beautiful, amazing cooking, making everything from scratch. His philosophy around cooking is very similar to mine, or I'd say mine is to his and he's been in many ways kind of a hero to me.
It's grown to the point where he then was able to buy a big plot of land and now there's the river, that is his. The show is now shot in a place called River Cottage, and you know he of course has a cottage, and a cooking school, and it's grown into this massive thing. It's all about using things seasonally and if you know me, that’s basically me.
If I had taken food, in the direction of a career, I'd want that to be the path, and as connected as that is, to the way that I see journeyman. To this day, if I am having a hard time emotionally, I pull up one of his old shows and just watch, it my way of getting grounded.
He single-handedly changed the eating patterns in his town, and in many places in England, through food advocacy. I can go on… but we don't have time for it, but I can tell you a little like he changed the purchasing practices of chicken, humanely raised as opposed to factory farmed.
He's someone who got the foundation right, did those things, and then went out and started doing activism.
Matt:
He brought the farm to the table.
Jason:
Yeah, he's really someone, this is quite humorous… when I've done some local presentations and workshops and classes here in Vermont, I've sent him an invite to all of them. I know that there is no way he's coming from London, but I would say in the invite, ‘you might like this thing I'm doing…’
Matt:
Well, maybe someday like, you know whether it be Dorset or Sussex, we'll be talking about the opening of the second journeyman's tavern, we will invite him to that opening.
Jason:
Oh, yes, I certainly will.
Matt:
Alas, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk.
Jason:
Absolutely wonderful man. Thank you. This was a great conversation.