The Tight Five: Episode 1 - Dr. Jason Frishman, JourneyMen
The Tight Five: Origin Stories from The Second Row
I am excited to announce a new blog series called The Tight Five: Origin Stories from The Second Row.
One of the central tenants of the work I do at The Second Row is using my communications skills to bring out what is interesting and awesome about people. That’s what I do. The Tight Five: Origin Stories from The Second Row will feature conversations with smart, thought-provoking folks who are doing great things in ‘The Front Row’ of work, mental health, marketing, service and technology and how they came to their personal and professional path in life. The series is named after the moniker of the combined Front Row (two props and the hooker in the middle) and the Second Row in the rugby scrum which I explained in this post.
The first installment of The Tight Five: Origin Stories from The Second Row features Dr. Jason Frishman, a psychologist based in Vermont and a longtime friend of mine. Jason’s work is focused on bringing his unique brand of adventure therapy and coaching to bring individuals, organizations and boardrooms to wild new environments of discovery. He is the founder of JourneyMen, a remarkable 3-month group coaching program designed to virtually support men in navigating the journey of fatherhood, that I helped him launch last year.
We talk about fatherhood, his role the Innkeeper of the JourneyMen and his curious desire to connect with a British farmer and chef, I hope you enjoy the introductory edition of The Tight Five: Origin Stories from The Second Row: Episode 1 with Dr. Jason Frishman.
This conversation with Jason was been edited for clarity and brevity, the entire episode and video of The Tight Five: Episode 1 - Dr. Jason Frishman, Founder & Owner of JourneyMen can be found HERE
Matt Landry:
So, you've been involved in mental health for several years. But you're also a professional chef. How do these two passions complement each other?
Dr. Jason Frishman:
We're not going to call me a chef because I don't have the credentials for that. I'm a cook, and I've done it professionally. I do it at home, I do it whenever, but I'm not a chef.
Decades ago, when I was working full-time as a therapist in Boston, and anyone who works as a therapist knows full-time, is more than 40 hours... I was also working part-time at a newly opened restaurant in Harvard Square, and that ‘part-time’ turned into about 35 hours a week. So, I was working, 70 hours a week, or whatever it was, and frankly it was some of the happiest times that I've had. Because the work was about great balance for my own brain and mindset. One was more physical. One was more mental, yet the one that was physical was also sort of mental.
A lot of what I do involves nourishing people and helping people learn how to nourish themselves, and so whether it's me cooking for people, which I do more, these days. It’s an offering in small gatherings, whether it's in cooking or in my therapeutic practice or the coaching work I do, how do we fill ourselves up and how do we create a real presence in that moment?
The type of therapy and coaching that I do involves awareness and a deconstruction of all the other systems that surround the individual. It's not just traditional therapy, which locates the problem within the person, as I really don't accept that notion.
Matt:
So, you launched the JourneyMan Foundation last fall. How did that come about?
Jason:
I've worked for almost 25 years in the mental health field, in all kinds of different residential and therapeutic settings, but almost entirely with men and boys and families. As I had my own children, I found that I saw fewer kids, because I wanted to save that energy for my kids and our friends.
As I started seeing more adults, I gradually came to focus on working with fathers. Part of it was because that was who was referred to me, but it was really because that’s who I loved working with.
One story I think about a lot is something that happened before the pandemic. I was in my office, in a session with a client and I knew that the guy who was literally waiting on the other side of my door in my waiting room, if I could just be able to introduce the two, they would have significantly less need of their therapist.
Very soon thereafter I had this realization that no matter how powerful of a session I have with a guy in my therapy office, as soon as he walks out of my room and into culture, into a world that isn't typically accepting of men doing this kind of work. The moment he walks out of the door to go back and be a part of the world and be part of his business world or be a part of his buddies. Even in his relationship at home. He's got to hold up certain masks or hold up certain things, that even if he's ready to let go of them, the community and the culture around him is not.
So, Journeyman was really born out of saying to myself, ‘I want to provide something, that I know would be useful and helpful and supportive to men. Something that's different than the traditional ‘I'm broken. I gotta go see a shrink…’
Matt:
Talk a bit about the thinking behind the JourneyMen curriculum, which is at the heart of the journeyman ‘journey’?
Jason:
Journeyman was really born out of the idea that everyday life is magical and adventurous, and we've lost touch with that. I think in many ways it has a lot to do with the social structure of things, the patriarchy, all the different things have limited the expression and the possibilities for men to develop.
JourneyMen became the idea of inviting men to come to an inn, metaphorically speaking, a virtual Inn and let their shoulders down and be heard, to get some training as to what to do, to share stories and elevate the mundane and the importance of our everyday lives to have meaning and value.
So, we need to build foundational adventures which give us the training, knowledge, awareness, presence, and mindfulness, to be able to both do the important things in our home, but also to go out into the world and do things in our community, in our work, and be real leaders in better and more powerful ways.
Matt:
When you're in your forties or fifties, you realize… ‘Oh, I'm not going to be the hero.’ I'm not going to be a movie star, or a professional baseball player… But on the other hand, there's this amazing, foundational work that all these men have been doing over the years.
Jason:
100% and that's exactly right. You've heard me say this, but being a connected present, father is social activism, and that’s an amazing way to frame it. because the more we have those foundation skills, the more we can also look at work. I have so many guys who say, ‘well yeah, of course, I care about this and this and this. But I don't have the time or resources to do it.’ Well, okay… but you know what, you are doing it. If you make the choice to know yourself, to really know your kids, what a gift you're giving to your little ones for sure.
Matt:
A lot of fathers over the last 3 years of got a chance to connect again with their kids as the world shut down with Covid. What are some of the impacts you're seeing with men that you're seeing after going through COVID?
Jason:
What's interesting specifically about men and fathers and an impact that I haven't thought much about, but I've been thinking a lot about it recently, is that it may not be increased isolation, but there's an increased awareness of one's isolation… when you're off going to work and you're like you know what you’re leaving behind or going to. The awareness of that is stronger for a lot of the men that I'm working with.
I think that's really the big one that jumps out, there's an awareness of isolation, loneliness, separateness, disconnection that I think men who have always been impacted by this, are now feeling it in ways that are new, and they feel shitty about it.
Matt:
To circle back a little bit to the start of our conversation, almost as if we intended it, you get to that point of awareness and feeling shitty about it and now what do you do?
Jason:
Exactly! Well, I would say that there's another step in there, not just how do you find the things you need, but how do you figure out what you need and why? What I'm saying is that there is an increased awareness of things being not right, but the solution is not there. Because we don't have the stories for it. We don't have teaching stories of how you start to address it. There are still men who will say, ‘Okay, I get that. I'm isolated, so I'll just fix it, you know.’ But men far too often say, ‘I'll just work harder.’
Matt:
Speaking of exploring what book, author or thinker has been a touchstone for you throughout your career. It can be professional, it can be personal, it can be both or it can be fantastical.
Jason:
The writing of two men, Michael White and David Epstein, who are seen as sort of the founders of the narrative therapy world. There are lots of people who write about the narrative, perspective, and other fields, but in in the therapeutic world the two of them have several books, and I came into them before I was in my doctorate program, I was working on my masters and read even a bit in undergrad, and I went to many of their trainings in person. Michael White even used to call me the ‘Adventure Guy.’ His stuff was amazing, because so much of narrative therapy was born from a very different well, than many other therapeutic perspectives.
Another one is Hugh Fernley Whittell, and he was a chef in London, and he just quit because he just wasn't fast or clean enough for the restaurant business. He created a TV series that is all about him learning to garden and take care of livestock and make a living and he does amazing, beautiful, amazing cooking, everything from scratch.
His philosophy around cooking is very similar to mine, or I'd say mine is to his and he's been in many ways kind of a hero to me. If I had taken food, in the direction of a career, I'd want that to be the path, and as connected as that is, to the way that I see journeyman. To this day, if I am having a hard time emotionally, I pull up one of his old shows and just watch, it my way of getting grounded.
Matt:
He brought the farm to the table.
Jason:
Yeah, he's really someone, this is quite humorous… when I've done some local presentations and workshops and classes here in Vermont, I've sent him an invite to all of them. I know that there is no way he's coming from London, but I would say in the invite, ‘you might like this thing I'm doing…’
Matt:
Alas, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk.
Jason:
Absolutely wonderful man. Thank you. This was a great conversation.